rock
New Rocker Rollin'
Posts: 24
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Post by rock on Dec 15, 2015 23:37:22 GMT
Totally agree with ya Frozenhero! Being a man who is in the field of mixing/mastering music, I can complete appreciate where you're coming from. Compression is a tool best used with the most delicate of hands, not to mention mastering too. All these remasters can reduce the listening quality SO much, that the true and original feel of the music can be completely lost to WAY too much high end, over processed bass and TONS of compression... because it's all about being polished and marketable to a new generation of people who are used to loads of compression. Yes, I can stick on the 2005 remasters and enjoy them for sure... but in my very humble opinion, they are far less enjoyable... to me anyway. But then again... I'm a fussy fecker when it comes to things like this... and sometimes I even wonder whether having the knowledge of master etc has made listing to music more of a pain in the arse, because of my over analyzing LOL... but I guess to me, these things matter... it's all about the integrity of the music for me. Although, I'm glad that it's helped me be more pickier with where my money's going and being more informed, then before, with what I'm buying.
Just my views anyway :-) Each to their own at the end of the day :-)
PS: Cheers for the link Frozenhero... great read! ;-)
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Post by frozenhero on Dec 16, 2015 10:22:46 GMT
The sure way to ruin my listening experience is to put out compromised remasters like the 2005 ones. In fact, once I actually knew what compression was all about I finally understood why some CDs gave me a headache. So my listening experience is actually improved, as this knowledge has helped me in avoiding flat, crappily produced / mastered CDs. And I'm not over analysing the music, just trying to find out which version sounds best. Andy Pearce's remasters sound nice to my ears; the DR numbers confirm this. Tim Turan's remasters sound harsh to my ears; again the DR numbers are a testament to that. If somebody who has the CF remasters could do the quick DR analysis it would tell me a bit more about the sound than just subjective impressions. Hence me asking. How does one do a quick DR analysis FH? There are two versions of the program (both free) - one is the standalone meter at www.dynamicrange.de/sites/default/files/DR-Meter%201_4a.zip which needs to be installed and can then be used to read only lossless WAV files or MP3 (for most accurate results, the original bitrate, i.e. 16/44 WAV is preferred). It also includes a VST plugin for DAW's, which is mainly relevant for engineers who want to check the DR of what they are mixing / mastering in realtime. The one I use all the time is the plugin for the media player foobar2000 which I've downloaded from pleasurizemusic.com/de/free-downloads - it can read all kinds of audio files and even (which is my preferred way of doing it, but it takes a bit longer) directly from the CD - select "Play CD" in the player, pause playback, select all tracks in the playlist window and choose "Dynamic Range Meter" from the right-click menu. When it's finished a log file is generated; when you're reading from CD directly you need to save it somewhere else as it's only temporary, when you've read files from your PC the text file gets stored alongside the music files. If my explanation doesn't make sense, the second link has everything covered in detail.
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Post by Mustang Bass on Dec 16, 2015 11:39:58 GMT
I agree. The sure way to ruin the listening experience is to over annalyse the music. I think I know what you mean, but I don't agree entirely. Two things: following music with a score lets you hear things you otherwise don't notice; and thinking about the music in detail can make you appreciate its construction a bit more. If you play guitar you can sort of feel what the player is doing to some extent and that brings an extra connection with the music - a sort of muscular sympathy. I know what you mean too, I find myself following the bass line without even realising it and I think it kind of spoils my listening experience because I tend to 'shut out' other parts of the music so I try to switch off and take in the whole thing, though it can be difficult.
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Post by charles on Dec 20, 2015 0:28:05 GMT
Please update this component. The latest information can be found on the website www.pleasurizemusic.com. Also tried your less preferred option but it cannot locate the WAVs on the CD (is that because they are probably .CDA? ) I can rip them to MP3 but I daresay the DR will then be unreliable? If it doesn't work out, will that be the end of your muscular sympathy for frozenhero?
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per
Rocker Rollin'
Posts: 605
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Post by per on Dec 21, 2015 0:10:09 GMT
Listened for the first time today on the deluxe edition of Hello, yes I agree that it's shitty bootleg sound on IIRM/GGH but what an absolutely marvellous stonking version it is!! I find it fully understandable why they wanted to release it - I'm totally blown away! It is such a briiliant performance that the shitty sound almost doesnt matter! I'm really happy that I bought it, this fabulous version made my day!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2015 0:21:28 GMT
I agree. The sure way to ruin the listening experience is to over annalyse the music. I think I know what you mean, but I don't agree entirely. Two things: following music with a score lets you hear things you otherwise don't notice; and thinking about the music in detail can make you appreciate its construction a bit more. If you play guitar you can sort of feel what the player is doing to some extent and that brings an extra connection with the music - a sort of muscular sympathy. It sounds not too far removed from giving birth. Loads of 'muscular sympathy' going on there!
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Post by frozenhero on Dec 30, 2015 20:26:28 GMT
There are two versions of the program (both free) - one is the standalone meter at www.dynamicrange.de/sites/default/files/DR-Meter%201_4a.zip which needs to be installed and can then be used to read only lossless WAV files or MP3 (for most accurate results, the original bitrate, i.e. 16/44 WAV is preferred). It also includes a VST plugin for DAW's, which is mainly relevant for engineers who want to check the DR of what they are mixing / mastering in realtime. The one I use all the time is the plugin for the media player foobar2000 which I've downloaded from pleasurizemusic.com/de/free-downloads - it can read all kinds of audio files and even (which is my preferred way of doing it, but it takes a bit longer) directly from the CD - select "Play CD" in the player, pause playback, select all tracks in the playlist window and choose "Dynamic Range Meter" from the right-click menu. When it's finished a log file is generated; when you're reading from CD directly you need to save it somewhere else as it's only temporary, when you've read files from your PC the text file gets stored alongside the music files. If my explanation doesn't make sense, the second link has everything covered in detail. got this after installing foobar and the DLL and asking for a DR of the CF Hello! This foobar2000 component has an expiration date set to 1 September 2011. Around this date the Pleasurize Music Foundation has planned an update for the Dynamic Range Meters and the foobar2000 component. These releases will have an updated algorithm for the DR metering.
Please update this component. The latest information can be found on the website www.pleasurizemusic.com. Also tried your less preferred option but it cannot locate the WAVs on the CD (is that because they are probably .CDA? ) I can rip them to MP3 but I daresay the DR will then be unreliable? I read that comment as well, but I have not been aware of any updates and my component is from the same site, I'm using it all the time... As for data-compressed formats like mp3, the values often slightly change because these formats have less range to begin with. I use WMA but the results are fairly close when compared to the CD results. So measuring MP3 would be better than nothing, though ripping to WAV (Windows Media Player can do it, as well as many other programs, including foobar, cdex, Exact Audio Copy) would give the most accurate results.
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rock
New Rocker Rollin'
Posts: 24
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Post by rock on Feb 1, 2016 11:43:12 GMT
got this after installing foobar and the DLL and asking for a DR of the CF Hello! This foobar2000 component has an expiration date set to 1 September 2011. Around this date the Pleasurize Music Foundation has planned an update for the Dynamic Range Meters and the foobar2000 component. These releases will have an updated algorithm for the DR metering.
Please update this component. The latest information can be found on the website www.pleasurizemusic.com. Also tried your less preferred option but it cannot locate the WAVs on the CD (is that because they are probably .CDA? ) I can rip them to MP3 but I daresay the DR will then be unreliable? I read that comment as well, but I have not been aware of any updates and my component is from the same site, I'm using it all the time... As for data-compressed formats like mp3, the values often slightly change because these formats have less range to begin with. I use WMA but the results are fairly close when compared to the CD results. So measuring MP3 would be better than nothing, though ripping to WAV (Windows Media Player can do it, as well as many other programs, including foobar, cdex, Exact Audio Copy) would give the most accurate results. Are there any updates on this at all? Really curious to find out what are the definitive releases (dynamic range value wise) of last year... the Culture Factory, JAPAN MINI LP SHM CD or the official Andy Pearce releases?
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Post by frozenhero on Feb 5, 2016 15:35:09 GMT
I read that comment as well, but I have not been aware of any updates and my component is from the same site, I'm using it all the time... As for data-compressed formats like mp3, the values often slightly change because these formats have less range to begin with. I use WMA but the results are fairly close when compared to the CD results. So measuring MP3 would be better than nothing, though ripping to WAV (Windows Media Player can do it, as well as many other programs, including foobar, cdex, Exact Audio Copy) would give the most accurate results. Are there any updates on this at all? Really curious to find out what are the definitive releases (dynamic range value wise) of last year... the Culture Factory, JAPAN MINI LP SHM CD or the official Andy Pearce releases? Yeah, I forgot to return to this thread. To you and gatesheadbanger try this one, perhaps it'll work: dr.loudness-war.info/downloads/foo_dynamic_range_1.1.1.zip
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Post by Whoppa Choppa on Feb 6, 2016 9:02:19 GMT
thanks - tried it. still no luck with foobar2000 utiity. But tried TT Dynamic Range Meter and got this for CF Quo album... (mp3's) Song | Left DR | Right DR | Left Peak | Right Peak | Left RMS | Right RMS | Backwater | 4.8 | 5.2 | -0.00 | -0.00 | -5.9 | -6.5 | JTM | 4.5 | 5.2 | -0.00 | -0.00 | -5.9 | -6.6 | BTR | 4.6 | 5.2 | over | over | -5.1 | -5.7 | DA | 4.5 | 5.4 | -0.00 | over | -5.3 | -6.2 | DTIM | 5.3 | 5.6 | -0.00 | over | -6.2 | -6.7 | FFF | 5.0 | 5.6 | -0.00 | -0.00 | -5.7 | -6.4 | LM | 5.1 | 5.8 | -0.00 | -0.00 | -7.1 | -7.8 | ST | 4.9 | 5.4 | over | over | -6.1 | -6.7 |
Lonely N 4.6 5.0 over -0.00 -5.5 -5.9 But I don't know if this is good, bad or ugly.... Any ideas FH? Well.... How did it sound to your ears, Gates? That is the most important thing....
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Post by frozenhero on Feb 6, 2016 10:18:14 GMT
thanks - tried it. still no luck with foobar2000 utiity. But tried TT Dynamic Range Meter and got this for CF Quo album... (mp3's) Song | Left DR | Right DR | Left Peak | Right Peak | Left RMS | Right RMS | Backwater | 4.8 | 5.2 | -0.00 | -0.00 | -5.9 | -6.5 | JTM | 4.5 | 5.2 | -0.00 | -0.00 | -5.9 | -6.6 | BTR | 4.6 | 5.2 | over | over | -5.1 | -5.7 | DA | 4.5 | 5.4 | -0.00 | over | -5.3 | -6.2 | DTIM | 5.3 | 5.6 | -0.00 | over | -6.2 | -6.7 | FFF | 5.0 | 5.6 | -0.00 | -0.00 | -5.7 | -6.4 | LM | 5.1 | 5.8 | -0.00 | -0.00 | -7.1 | -7.8 | ST | 4.9 | 5.4 | over | over | -6.1 | -6.7 |
Lonely N 4.6 5.0 over -0.00 -5.5 -5.9 But I don't know if this is good, bad or ugly.... Any ideas FH? Oh. My. Feckin. God. That would be the least dynamic remaster in my collection! Granted, more bass decreases the DR value but an average of DR 5? Shudders
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Post by frozenhero on Feb 8, 2016 11:44:04 GMT
After having seen these DR numbers, I don't reasonably see how anybody could class these releases as "dynamic" (they seem to be crushed to hell and back!) and "audiophile". CF are selling a scam, I am not an audiophile but I know audiophiles want LESS compression, MORE dynamics and generally LESS processing. The Tim Turan remasters werer moderately compressed, but Culture Factory have jumped the shark. And it's not the first time they've been caught. If dynamics are important for your listening experience, avoid these at all costs. I don't rule out the possibility that they may have better tonality than others but in this case, there seems to be some severe limiting going on, and that is the overriding aspect for me.
Just for comparison: On the Andy Pearce remaster the DRs are between 10 (Drifting Away) and 13 (Slow Train). The RMS (average volume) is somewhere between -11 dB and -15 dB. That means the CF is three times as loud, and has only a fraction of the original dynamics still left. It's only two dB away from some of the worst loudness war victims like Death Magnetic, and louder than any original Quo release (ISOTFC goes all the way up to -6 dB RMS and has some tracks in the DR 5 range). I also see that there is a couple of overs in the MP3, meaning that if it wasn't clipped on the CD already, it certainly led to additional distortions during the MP3 conversion.
I wrote some rants about the latest batch of Saga remasters. Saga, like Quo, have succumbed to the loudness wars as far as new releases are considered, but I was shocked with the complete lack of dynamics on the new remasters. This is even more limited and would probably lead to my mind turning off after some two minutes.
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Post by Victor on Feb 12, 2016 20:25:10 GMT
so you aren't going to buy one and try one FH...? One thing I'll say about dynamics - you can have too much of a good thing - classical music is a right bloody nuisance for going ppp to fff - I have to keep adjusting the volume knob. Tell me about it, Gates ! I got feckin startled more then once thanks to what you mentioned about classical music. It's one of it's few disadvantages.
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Post by twentytwenty on Feb 16, 2016 15:22:02 GMT
I was disappointed with the remixed RAOTW.. The remix sound wise sounds great. But he have killed the songs by scrapping a lot of tracks from the original recordings. The shaker in Rockers Rolin' is gone, and therefore the drive from the rhythm is gone. The third guitar I the verses on Can't Give You More is gone, and that kills that song.. The shaker in the verses on Hard Time is gone, and that kills the groove on that song. All of this is a real disappointment for me because they really do SOUND great..
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Post by dennis on Feb 16, 2016 23:36:00 GMT
I suppose at some point in the future you'll be able to buy a copy of the master recordings so you can mix & remix the tracks to suit your personal taste.
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