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Post by frozenhero on Jan 27, 2016 15:47:54 GMT
Andy Bown can claim his authenticity in the FF (+1) He played as part of the full experience and generation of FF song writing and success. Nothing against Rhino here, and although I am a long standing fan, please excuse my lack of knowledge on this particular point, but how much music had he heard of the FF when he joined and which, if any songs did he know and like before the start of the new chapter? From what I recall, he was quite impressed with "Paper Plane" and certainly knew all the singles.
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Post by frozenhero on Jan 27, 2016 15:59:23 GMT
I think there was a lot of sloppiness during the FF reunions as well (overlooked by fans with nostalgia glasses, obviously), but that's well beyond what I said; I was referring to concerts like Just Doin' It and Pictures Live, which are overall good showcases of tight, energetic live versions of Status Quo songs seamlessly blended together to a modern, non-nostalgic, in-the-moment, heads-down rock concert. I'm referring to the fact that Rhino and Andy have adapted the songs to their playing style, so when I hear the 2006 live version of "Down Down" it's not inferior to the original version, it's simply different - it kicks major ass in both instances. It is however miles better than what I see on either FF reunion DVD, and I'm simply being an objective critic there, they couldn't do that particular song justice anymore. The problem as I see it is that people seem to fool themselves into thinking that the FF reunion was as good as the band once was in the 70s, and it simply wasn't, end of discussion. As long as songs are being developed, changed, updated, whatever, it's not nostalgia. When you go and listen to an old live recording and limit yourself to a certain time period despite all four band members having written and recorded loads of songs after that point, it is nostalgia, because it is trying to recreate something that happened years ago. Simply playing songs the way you are playing them by nature isn't. I don't know how you got the idea that my post was somehow defending Francis' lazy guitar playing. I mean, listen to how he sang GoGoGo on the Bula Quo tour. It's a new song and he couldn't or wouldn't do better than that. So where's the nostalgia connection? They could have played some of the their hits (and quo ff had the greatest hits of Quo) on the reunion tour, though I suspect Rossi cleverly or otherwise decided to stay as far away from them as possible, in attempt to portrait the band with Alan and John in it, as some nostalgic 70's rock act who don't play hit singles..!!!
The reunion gigs sounded as good if not better than the 70's and of course they weren't as frantic as they once were, though watch Rick on Big Fat Mama live from Dublin it's about as frantic as it gets...the only sloppiness I saw on the tour was the toilets in hammersmith, which is to be expected at a proper Rock gig. The 1973 live version of "Railroad" destroys the 2013 version so much it's not even funny. I often see people being hyper-critical about CQ but generously overlooking any aspect of the FF reunions that wasn't so pretty. Neither of the two come close to FF in their prime.
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Post by frozenhero on Jan 27, 2016 16:04:35 GMT
I think there was a lot of sloppiness during the FF reunions as well (overlooked by fans with nostalgia glasses, obviously), but that's well beyond what I said; I was referring to concerts like Just Doin' It and Pictures Live, which are overall good showcases of tight, energetic live versions of Status Quo songs seamlessly blended together to a modern, non-nostalgic, in-the-moment, heads-down rock concert. I'm referring to the fact that Rhino and Andy have adapted the songs to their playing style, so when I hear the 2006 live version of "Down Down" it's not inferior to the original version, it's simply different - it kicks major ass in both instances. It is however miles better than what I see on either FF reunion DVD, and I'm simply being an objective critic there, they couldn't do that particular song justice anymore. The problem as I see it is that people seem to fool themselves into thinking that the FF reunion was as good as the band once was in the 70s, and it simply wasn't, end of discussion. As long as songs are being developed, changed, updated, whatever, it's not nostalgia. When you go and listen to an old live recording and limit yourself to a certain time period despite all four band members having written and recorded loads of songs after that point, it is nostalgia, because it is trying to recreate something that happened years ago. Simply playing songs the way you are playing them by nature isn't. I don't know how you got the idea that my post was somehow defending Francis' lazy guitar playing. I mean, listen to how he sang GoGoGo on the Bula Quo tour. It's a new song and he couldn't or wouldn't do better than that. So where's the nostalgia connection? Lets put it this way. I would much rather see the original members try to recreate and indulge in their own nostalgia (if that is what it is) rather than have persistently updated recreations of those songs with half of the original membership missing.
It matters less to me whether the originals play 'Down Down' or whatever other hit or song of theirs less well by comparison to 30 and 40 more years back - I would much rather have this than an updated, over polished and over rehearsed version by a 'modern day' band who prefer to copy original hits and refuse to play their own product beyond CUOY and the Oriental and a rotation of two or three other over rehearsed interchangeable standards as a bolt on mainstay of the set.
The remaining mostly 95% + ignored CQ product, when it comes to the live show, has obvious departures around a theme to the FF original product and would be a different experience to any FF gig past or present.
But that is mostly the point. It would nonetheless be an authentic reproduction of their own sound, and authentic gig in its own right set aside from the FF, and, based on a 30 yr back catalogue - it would be a recreation of CQ own nostalgia. That would turn it from an entertainment show (with added 'amusement value') into a music gig in its own right. Aside from Francis and Rick - Rhino, Andy and each drummer of CQ are and have been good musicians in their own right, so let them focus on what they bring to the table with Francis and Rick, rather than dumb all that down to happy clappy caricaturing and copying of old work that cannot be replicated as a whole even with half of the original parts still in place. In that sense, a major sense, its the original integrity of the music that matters, rather than any modern day polished replication to remove 'untidy edges'.
Placed in a position where the band and management do not care what large sections of the fans think, or prefer instead to insist on knowing better what those fans think than they do for themselves, and thereby refuse to reflect the true self identity of CQ at the expense of focussing on being a tribute band both to the FF and themselves, it does actually raise the question about the bandwith existence of the name of 'Status Quo'
Its the first time I have ever said that, but for the first time I've got to the position of actually thinking it. There, its been said.
Completely besides the point.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 16:15:46 GMT
The current band playing songs from FF back catalogue, isn't, in my opinion anything nostalgic. It represents a changed membership playing their version of those songs.
There was a rare and exciting opportunity in both 2013 and 2014 for both the FF and CQ to play sets true to their own, during their own tours, and showcase fully have the band has evolved over so many decades
What we got instead was the FF side of the bargain, which was of course something special just on its own, but then we got the 'same old' from CQ who carried on copying the FF along with those special minority favourites of their own that the more casual fans can sing along to now having learnt the words from so many years permanent inclusion in the set, as well as clap and bop along to them in anticipation of the wink or nod at the given break in the song. All which represents the staggering progress that has been made to create any separate spontaneous self identity
The idea to then take two stalwart vintage period FF classics from the reunion tours and include them as part of the copying act proved to be a complete flop, when what should have happened was they took the same inspiration from the FF act by taking their own material (not FF songs) to further showcase their own abilities and differing appeals.
CQ playing songs in their copy act like Blue Eyed Lady after the FF had played them as their originals, especially in the context of all the atmosphere and emotion created by playing together again, was a sure-fire way to undo some of the glow of appeal, excitement and spontaneity that was created by the original members in the first place.
Why oh why not place something from post 86 instead? Hey there is only another 30 yrs of choice available? doh
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 16:17:20 GMT
Andy Bown can claim his authenticity in the FF (+1) He played as part of the full experience and generation of FF song writing and success. Nothing against Rhino here, and although I am a long standing fan, please excuse my lack of knowledge on this particular point, but how much music had he heard of the FF when he joined and which, if any songs did he know and like before the start of the new chapter? From what I recall, he was quite impressed with "Paper Plane" and certainly knew all the singles. My dear old daddy liked Accident Prone. He could have been in with a shout if he had known
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 16:24:03 GMT
Lets put it this way. I would much rather see the original members try to recreate and indulge in their own nostalgia (if that is what it is) rather than have persistently updated recreations of those songs with half of the original membership missing.
It matters less to me whether the originals play 'Down Down' or whatever other hit or song of theirs less well by comparison to 30 and 40 more years back - I would much rather have this than an updated, over polished and over rehearsed version by a 'modern day' band who prefer to copy original hits and refuse to play their own product beyond CUOY and the Oriental and a rotation of two or three other over rehearsed interchangeable standards as a bolt on mainstay of the set.
The remaining mostly 95% + ignored CQ product, when it comes to the live show, has obvious departures around a theme to the FF original product and would be a different experience to any FF gig past or present.
But that is mostly the point. It would nonetheless be an authentic reproduction of their own sound, and authentic gig in its own right set aside from the FF, and, based on a 30 yr back catalogue - it would be a recreation of CQ own nostalgia. That would turn it from an entertainment show (with added 'amusement value') into a music gig in its own right. Aside from Francis and Rick - Rhino, Andy and each drummer of CQ are and have been good musicians in their own right, so let them focus on what they bring to the table with Francis and Rick, rather than dumb all that down to happy clappy caricaturing and copying of old work that cannot be replicated as a whole even with half of the original parts still in place. In that sense, a major sense, its the original integrity of the music that matters, rather than any modern day polished replication to remove 'untidy edges'.
Placed in a position where the band and management do not care what large sections of the fans think, or prefer instead to insist on knowing better what those fans think than they do for themselves, and thereby refuse to reflect the true self identity of CQ at the expense of focussing on being a tribute band both to the FF and themselves, it does actually raise the question about the bandwith existence of the name of 'Status Quo'
Its the first time I have ever said that, but for the first time I've got to the position of actually thinking it. There, its been said.
Completely besides the point. I think it is well within the point
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 16:27:37 GMT
2 Crowds One full of QUO fans who simply wanted QUO in front of them . Second crowd full of people who think RAOTW was there best song .
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Post by lazypokerblues on Jan 27, 2016 16:33:18 GMT
CQ playing songs in their copy act like Blue Eyed Lady after the FF had played them as their originals, especially in the context of all the atmosphere and emotion created by playing together again, was a sure-fire way to undo some of the glow of appeal, excitement and spontaneity that was created by the original members in the first place.
Why oh why not place something from post 86 instead? Hey there is only another 30 yrs of choice available? doh It was easier for them to have a crack at Blue Eyed Lady and Oh Baby than it would have been to rehearse Dust to Gold. And I would love to hear them play that.
Talk about scoring an own goal. They did it in 2013 by releasing Bula Quo straight after FF, and then they did it again by attempting to please the hardcore by playing these 'niche' FF songs on the 2014 winter tour. It pleased neither the hardcore, nor the casuals. After the joyous reception those songs had received earlier in the year, it was thoroughly depressing to see them being 'covered' by CQ, and to go down so badly. So how to respond? Just do Somethin Bout You Baby and The Wanderer so that we can all twirl our fingers in the air. Then we're back in the comfort zone and it's business as usual.
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Post by Detroit on Jan 27, 2016 16:47:29 GMT
So nostalgia is playing the songs like they were recorded,and how they got loved, but to adapt an old song and transform it to the recent style: playing it sloppy and uninspired, is not nostalgia? Then they are not nostalgic, but unaware of, and disrespectful to their own legacy. IMO. Etc. Etc. I think there was a lot of sloppiness during the FF reunions as well (overlooked by fans with nostalgia glasses, obviously), but that's well beyond what I said; I was referring to concerts like Just Doin' It and Pictures Live, which are overall good showcases of tight, energetic live versions of Status Quo songs seamlessly blended together to a modern, non-nostalgic, in-the-moment, heads-down rock concert. I'm referring to the fact that Rhino and Andy have adapted the songs to their playing style, so when I hear the 2006 live version of "Down Down" it's not inferior to the original version, it's simply different - it kicks major ass in both instances. It is however miles better than what I see on either FF reunion DVD, and I'm simply being an objective critic there, they couldn't do that particular song justice anymore. The problem as I see it is that people seem to fool themselves into thinking that the FF reunion was as good as the band once was in the 70s, and it simply wasn't, end of discussion. As long as songs are being developed, changed, updated, whatever, it's not nostalgia. When you go and listen to an old live recording and limit yourself to a certain time period despite all four band members having written and recorded loads of songs after that point, it is nostalgia, because it is trying to recreate something that happened years ago. Simply playing songs the way you are playing them by nature isn't. I don't know how you got the idea that my post was somehow defending Francis' lazy guitar playing. I mean, listen to how he sang GoGoGo on the Bula Quo tour. It's a new song and he couldn't or wouldn't do better than that. So where's the nostalgia connection? ...and that is just the way it should have been expected. If you want a perfect gig go see the likes of Justin Bieber, sounds just like the studio recordings because that's what it is.
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Post by americanquo on Jan 27, 2016 16:49:48 GMT
I've got no axe to grind here. I approached this band with no knowledge whatsoever, and didn't even know there had been a lineup change for the first few weeks. In my eyes, 'Hello' had the same weight as 'Thirsty Work'. It wasn't until I became familiar enough with the music to make my own judgments that I started coming to conclusions. Remember, I LIKE a lot of the later work. I think they should play mostly later work on stage, with a few oldies thrown in. That would be playing your own material, and there's more than enough to fill a great setlist. Yet, they do not do it. Why not? The standard answer is they are giving the fans what they want, and yet, they really aren't. If the fans want to hear the old songs, then the fans would prefer to hear them by the people who wrote, influenced, recorded and produced them. That's giving the people what they want, if the people want the oldies, and according to Quo's current management, they do. They are talking out of both sides of their mouths. Anyway, I love the band and love a lot of the later material. AQ - it's wonderful having you here because you approach discussion with fresh eyes and an objective point of view.
There is one vital ingredient missing from this discussion, and that is Quo's audience. You won't have had any experience of this so you can't take it into account, but I think it plays a really important part of why the setlist is what it is.
They never played very much with the set list - they never have. They've let it slowly evolve - some stuff stays in forever and becomes a 'must' play and other stuff comes and goes. Just look at the setlist from the mid 70s to the mid 80s. Their most creative time was in the 90s/00's. But in the 10's it's just become set in stone.
From the mid 90s onwards their audience started changing. I put this down to a combination of the old Quo army just gradually drifting away, year on year, also the band started doing cover versions, and became more easy listening, good time Christmas party knees up entertainers. The new audience wouldn't be interested in buying Quo's new albums - they just wanted to hear the greatest hits. You still had a minority of hardcore Quo Army hangers on, but in the main, in order to keep selling tickets, they've had to rely on just playing the big hits and doing medleys.
They've been playing 'new' stuff like Oriental and Creepin Up, for 14 years now, so they've become as well known as Caroline etc for the regular casual punter, even if they've never heard the Heavy Traffic album.
They tried playing Blue Eyed Lady and Oh Baby in 2014 and they went down like a lead balloon so that just shows the difference in the audience.
That's a reasonable explanation of why things are how they are, however, it does not really change my point. Heck, it reinforces it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 16:51:40 GMT
They could have played some of the their hits (and quo ff had the greatest hits of Quo) on the reunion tour, though I suspect Rossi cleverly or otherwise decided to stay as far away from them as possible, in attempt to portrait the band with Alan and John in it, as some nostalgic 70's rock act who don't play hit singles..!!!
The reunion gigs sounded as good if not better than the 70's and of course they weren't as frantic as they once were, though watch Rick on Big Fat Mama live from Dublin it's about as frantic as it gets...the only sloppiness I saw on the tour was the toilets in hammersmith, which is to be expected at a proper Rock gig. The 1973 live version of "Railroad" destroys the 2013 version so much it's not even funny. I often see people being hyper-critical about CQ but generously overlooking any aspect of the FF reunions that wasn't so pretty. Neither of the two come close to FF in their prime. Your comparisons of versions of songs 40 yrs apart as reflections of age and playing restrictions collectively (taking into account Alans health and John getting back to fitness) is what misses the point.
My own 'hyper criticism' of CQ is that they copy FF songs far too much and do not utilise 30 years of their own material. Frankly its irrelevant comparing versions of songs over 40 yrs. The results are bound to obvious comparing most rock artists. What matters is actually seeing heroes from your past daring to play songs that even they did not feature 40 yrs back - and regardless of the restrictions that might handicap them.
CQ might not have such limitations in terms of overall health and fitness, but then that gives them so much less excuse for not following the example of the FF, despite the reunion handicaps, and instead sticking with copying and playing the 'same old'
Rather have a band with playing restrictions and maybe a few rougher edges but who are still willing to take risks on stage and give long standing sections of fans what they long to hear for, than one that an interminably samey stretching set, ill-represented of their own songs, executed precisely note for note, stage move by stage move, and geared towards those who love hearing RAOTW.
There is nothing nostalgic, let alone enjoyable about the latter choice in my opinion
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Post by americanquo on Jan 27, 2016 16:52:59 GMT
I think there was a lot of sloppiness during the FF reunions as well (overlooked by fans with nostalgia glasses, obviously), but that's well beyond what I said; I was referring to concerts like Just Doin' It and Pictures Live, which are overall good showcases of tight, energetic live versions of Status Quo songs seamlessly blended together to a modern, non-nostalgic, in-the-moment, heads-down rock concert. I'm referring to the fact that Rhino and Andy have adapted the songs to their playing style, so when I hear the 2006 live version of "Down Down" it's not inferior to the original version, it's simply different - it kicks major ass in both instances. It is however miles better than what I see on either FF reunion DVD, and I'm simply being an objective critic there, they couldn't do that particular song justice anymore. The problem as I see it is that people seem to fool themselves into thinking that the FF reunion was as good as the band once was in the 70s, and it simply wasn't, end of discussion. As long as songs are being developed, changed, updated, whatever, it's not nostalgia. When you go and listen to an old live recording and limit yourself to a certain time period despite all four band members having written and recorded loads of songs after that point, it is nostalgia, because it is trying to recreate something that happened years ago. Simply playing songs the way you are playing them by nature isn't. I don't know how you got the idea that my post was somehow defending Francis' lazy guitar playing. I mean, listen to how he sang GoGoGo on the Bula Quo tour. It's a new song and he couldn't or wouldn't do better than that. So where's the nostalgia connection? Lets put it this way. I would much rather see the original members try to recreate and indulge in their own nostalgia (if that is what it is) rather than have persistently updated recreations of those songs with half of the original membership missing.
It matters less to me whether the originals play 'Down Down' or whatever other hit or song of theirs less well by comparison to 30 and 40 more years back - I would much rather have this than an updated, over polished and over rehearsed version by a 'modern day' band who prefer to copy original hits and refuse to play their own product beyond CUOY and the Oriental and a rotation of two or three other over rehearsed interchangeable standards as a bolt on mainstay of the set.
The remaining mostly 95% + ignored CQ product, when it comes to the live show, has obvious departures around a theme to the FF original product and would be a different experience to any FF gig past or present.
But that is mostly the point. It would nonetheless be an authentic reproduction of their own sound, and authentic gig in its own right set aside from the FF, and, based on a 30 yr back catalogue - it would be a recreation of CQ own nostalgia. That would turn it from an entertainment show (with added 'amusement value') into a music gig in its own right. Aside from Francis and Rick - Rhino, Andy and each drummer of CQ are and have been good musicians in their own right, so let them focus on what they bring to the table with Francis and Rick, rather than dumb all that down to happy clappy caricaturing and copying of old work that cannot be replicated as a whole even with half of the original parts still in place. In that sense, a major sense, its the original integrity of the music that matters, rather than any modern day polished replication to remove 'untidy edges'.
Placed in a position where the band and management do not care what large sections of the fans think, or prefer instead to insist on knowing better what those fans think than they do for themselves, and thereby refuse to reflect the true self identity of CQ at the expense of focussing on being a tribute band both to the FF and themselves, it does actually raise the question about the bandwith existence of the name of 'Status Quo'
Its the first time I have ever said that, but for the first time I've got to the position of actually thinking it. There, its been said.
Catlady - You articulated my position better than I ever could.
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Post by americanquo on Jan 27, 2016 16:54:53 GMT
I think there was a lot of sloppiness during the FF reunions as well (overlooked by fans with nostalgia glasses, obviously), but that's well beyond what I said; I was referring to concerts like Just Doin' It and Pictures Live, which are overall good showcases of tight, energetic live versions of Status Quo songs seamlessly blended together to a modern, non-nostalgic, in-the-moment, heads-down rock concert. I'm referring to the fact that Rhino and Andy have adapted the songs to their playing style, so when I hear the 2006 live version of "Down Down" it's not inferior to the original version, it's simply different - it kicks major ass in both instances. It is however miles better than what I see on either FF reunion DVD, and I'm simply being an objective critic there, they couldn't do that particular song justice anymore. The problem as I see it is that people seem to fool themselves into thinking that the FF reunion was as good as the band once was in the 70s, and it simply wasn't, end of discussion. As long as songs are being developed, changed, updated, whatever, it's not nostalgia. When you go and listen to an old live recording and limit yourself to a certain time period despite all four band members having written and recorded loads of songs after that point, it is nostalgia, because it is trying to recreate something that happened years ago. Simply playing songs the way you are playing them by nature isn't. I don't know how you got the idea that my post was somehow defending Francis' lazy guitar playing. I mean, listen to how he sang GoGoGo on the Bula Quo tour. It's a new song and he couldn't or wouldn't do better than that. So where's the nostalgia connection? ...and that is just the way it should have been expected. If you want a perfect gig go see the likes of Justin Bieber, sounds just like the studio recordings because that's what it is. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't one of the criticisms of Quo3 live that they are over-rehearsed and too perfect? Mistakes are part of a really rocking experience, aren't they?
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Post by Detroit on Jan 27, 2016 17:03:26 GMT
...and that is just the way it should have been expected. If you want a perfect gig go see the likes of Justin Bieber, sounds just like the studio recordings because that's what it is. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't one of the criticisms of Quo3 live that they are over-rehearsed and too perfect? Mistakes are part of a really rocking experience, aren't they? You are not wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 17:13:40 GMT
They could have played some of the their hits (and quo ff had the greatest hits of Quo) on the reunion tour, though I suspect Rossi cleverly or otherwise decided to stay as far away from them as possible, in attempt to portrait the band with Alan and John in it, as some nostalgic 70's rock act who don't play hit singles..!!!
The reunion gigs sounded as good if not better than the 70's and of course they weren't as frantic as they once were, though watch Rick on Big Fat Mama live from Dublin it's about as frantic as it gets...the only sloppiness I saw on the tour was the toilets in hammersmith, which is to be expected at a proper Rock gig. The 1973 live version of "Railroad" destroys the 2013 version so much it's not even funny. I often see people being hyper-critical about CQ but generously overlooking any aspect of the FF reunions that wasn't so pretty. Neither of the two come close to FF in their prime. Any song that was played live in 1973 and also the live 1976 album destroys the 2013 versions but also totally wipes the floor with CQ attempts . But why compare this ??
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