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Post by fretbuzzzzz on Apr 11, 2020 0:20:13 GMT
always interested in this kind of insight. I'm a massive fan of Ritchie's playing and music (as I am with Francis) but from all the stuff you read it seems they are really difficult/not nice guys to be around. Always begs the question whether they could/should/would have achieved more had they been more receptive and collabrotive with others or not? I guess that's the million dollar question? Is there much evidence that Francis isn't a nice guy? (I'm sure people will come up with plenty)! Just because you see yourself as the unelected leader/main man, doesn't automatically mean that you aren't a nice guy. I mean, since Roy, who has actually left Quo because they couldn't work with Francis, as opposed to being kicked out because he couldn't work with them or they weren't pulling their weight? I think sometimes you have to be ruthless to succeed; but ruthless isn't the same as being difficult. Some interesting posts and thoughts here. Perhaps Andy Bown has learned how to play the game as such with Francis, as never really hear of any friction between them. Andy has been with the band for decades but of course he doesn't have the same history with the band as Alan, John, Rick and Bob Y. Francis has been driven in his pursuit of success. At one time he used to say he didn't have hobbies etc and when at home he would be in his home studio from 9 til 5pm. Rick was a different character and creativity would ebb and flow, when he wasn't being the rock star in Stringfellows or Langans or somewhere with his mates! Tony has likened Francis to Blackmore in character which is interesting. I have been intrigued by certain musicians in bands who have had a driven mentality. John Mayall for starters. He has had a reputation as being awkward to work with and demanding. He has denied this and thinks of himself as easy to get on with. Though he did have that leader and driven type of personality in the 60s when getting established with his band in Britain. A strong vision of what was needed to succeed in the blues. Mayall would be the sort of person who, after sound checks, would be on the door with a 'clicker', counting the number of punters coming through the door into his gigs. A way of gauging the band's popularity and needing confirmation that he was succeeding. He could quite coldly sack a long term friend and band member in favour of the new kid on the block (Clapton) because in his mind it was a no-brainer in terms of getting closer to the Holy Grail of blues and commercial success. He has certainly seen many musicians come and go in his band through the years. Perhaps he isn't the most tolerant of people if he senses a weak link or anyone not pulling their weight? Wanting things done his way? He's now in his 80s and still touring!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2020 0:53:42 GMT
Is there much evidence that Francis isn't a nice guy? (I'm sure people will come up with plenty)! Just because you see yourself as the unelected leader/main man, doesn't automatically mean that you aren't a nice guy. I mean, since Roy, who has actually left Quo because they couldn't work with Francis, as opposed to being kicked out because he couldn't work with them or they weren't pulling their weight? I think sometimes you have to be ruthless to succeed; but ruthless isn't the same as being difficult. Some interesting posts and thoughts here. Perhaps Andy Bown has learned how to play the game as such with Francis, as never really hear of any friction between them. Andy has been with the band for decades but of course he doesn't have the same history with the band as Alan, John, Rick and Bob Y. Francis has been driven in his pursuit of success. At one time he used to say he didn't have hobbies etc and when at home he would be in his home studio from 9 til 5pm. Rick was a different character and creativity would ebb and flow, when he wasn't being the rock star in Stringfellows or Langans or somewhere with his mates! Tony has likened Francis to Blackmore in character which is interesting. I have been intrigued by certain musicians in bands who have had a driven mentality. John Mayall for starters. He has had a reputation as being awkward to work with and demanding. He has denied this and thinks of himself as easy to get on with. Though he did have that leader and driven type of personality in the 60s when getting established with his band in Britain. A strong vision of what was needed to succeed in the blues. Mayall would be the sort of person who, after sound checks, would be on the door with a 'clicker', counting the number of punters coming through the door into his gigs. A way of gauging the band's popularity and needing confirmation that he was succeeding. He could quite coldly sack a long term friend and band member in favour of the new kid on the block (Clapton) because in his mind it was a no-brainer in terms of getting closer to the Holy Grail of blues and commercial success. He has certainly seen many musicians come and go in his band through the years. Perhaps he isn't the most tolerant of people if he senses a weak link or anyone not pulling their weight? Wanting things done his way? He's now in his 80s and still touring! Had Ritchie been more open to other musicians suggestions and possible contributions I'm sure the output would have been much better and the line up more stable but even the Rising sessions were nightmarish, there was so much material that was cut, songs totally rearranged, certainly it drove Ronnie and me to absolute distraction. Also Ritchie wanted hit records and to be in singles charts far more than to be recognised for musical and creative prowess. As for John Mayall I've worked with him a few times over the years and produced an album for him and found him delightful. Still love his music now.
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Post by fretbuzzzzz on Apr 11, 2020 1:37:21 GMT
Thanks Tony for the insights with Rising. From what you say, I can see where some similarities lay with Francis and Ritchie B.
Back in the 1990s, I think it was, there had been an excellent and informative TV film/Doc about the British blues scene in the 60s featuring John Mayall. Have been trying to find a copy of it since but without luck. There have been similar programmes about the 60s scene and with Mayall but not the one I remember.
One of the things that especially struck me was how Mayall's band would clock up incredible mileages and think nothing of leaving London for a gig up in Manchester, return home to London the same night/early hours and then off to say Birmingham for a gig the next day and this would be repeated day after day. No overnight hotels and few motorways. One of the reasons why possibly Mayall had the early reputation as a demanding taskmaster?
I will look out for your work with John Mayall. The last Mayall album that I bought had been 'Spinning Coin'. The track called 'Ain't No Brakeman' (not penned by Mayall) is exceptional in my opinion and the guitar solo by Buddy Whittington is sublime.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2020 8:16:03 GMT
Thanks Tony for the insights with Rising. From what you say, I can see where some similarities lay with Francis and Ritchie B. Back in the 1990s, I think it was, there had been an excellent and informative TV film/Doc about the British blues scene in the 60s featuring John Mayall. Have been trying to find a copy of it since but without luck. There have been similar programmes about the 60s scene and with Mayall but not the one I remember. One of the things that especially struck me was how Mayall's band would clock up incredible mileages and think nothing of leaving London for a gig up in Manchester, return home to London the same night/early hours and then off to say Birmingham for a gig the next day and this would be repeated day after day. No overnight hotels and few motorways. One of the reasons why possibly Mayall had the early reputation as a demanding taskmaster? I will look out for your work with John Mayall. The last Mayall album that I bought had been 'Spinning Coin'. The track called 'Ain't No Brakeman' (not penned by Mayall) is exceptional in my opinion and the guitar solo by Buddy Whittington is sublime. The album I produced was Chicago Line years and years ago, played keyboards on it too. I've done keyboards on a few other tracks over the years for him too but uncredited, just as a favour.
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Post by MrWaistcoat on Apr 11, 2020 11:27:16 GMT
I was surprised to see Andy on this. He deserved better than to be treated as a member of the crew. Then again, not being included in the photo may have made him feel totally forgotten!
I don't sense tension with francis, andy and rhino. Nor previously with jeff. I think they've all accepted their place within the band. I don't think rhino or andy expect to make decisions, and know how far they can press to influence one.
In fairness to francis,from 71-81 the line up was of course extremely stable - something Blackmore couldn't have achieved?
Drugs came in and the band split. All contributed to it. From then on, francis had to drive the band forward as nobody else was doing it. And why should he have treated newcomers as equals?
Of course much later things went sour with Rick. But that was MUCH later. And according to Francis, it was Rick that had changed and wasn't always a nice guy anymore. Of course, we don't know.
So both to crew, management and to band members...Francis could be argued to have shown great loyalty with many very lasting and enduring relationships.
Despite being the public face of the band during the 70's heyday, he certainly wasn't the star of the live show....with Alan hogging most of the vocals in the first half of the set. That doesn't suggest a particularly difficult character. My very limited understanding of Blackmore is that everyone other than his wife found him difficult to work with!
I think Francis get's flak for his personality from us fans largely because we believe he drove the band in the wrong direction. If every post heyday album had been a blissful boogie workout....he would still be revered as a rock god, and I doubt his character would be questioned.
Interesting comments about the other "frantics" being jeolous of his partnership with Bob. Can anyone add more to that?
Of course there's all the disappointment that Francis didn't want to continue with "the frantics", and of course some of the ridiculous things he's said about it and the bands legacy. Yes he's expressed himself badly. Yes he is contrary and hard to understand. But difficult to work with? For lots of people who've been around him for decades...no.... he isn't.
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Post by wolfman on Apr 11, 2020 12:04:39 GMT
Maybe one day a proper film like Elton's r Freddie's will be produced..but who's story would it tell...many versions out there .if one was made into a film it would be rossi and that would be one sided his version.i would love to hear nuffs version...sadly we wont hear Rick's now unless his son puts one out.
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Post by fretbuzzzzz on Apr 11, 2020 12:48:02 GMT
I was surprised to see Andy on this. He deserved better than to be treated as a member of the crew. Then again, not being included in the photo may have made him feel totally forgotten! I don't sense tension with francis, andy and rhino. Nor previously with jeff. I think they've all accepted their place within the band. I don't think rhino or andy expect to make decisions, and know how far they can press to influence one. In fairness to francis,from 71-81 the line up was of course extremely stable - something Blackmore couldn't have achieved? Drugs came in and the band split. All contributed to it. From then on, francis had to drive the band forward as nobody else was doing it. And why should he have treated newcomers as equals? Of course much later things went sour with Rick. But that was MUCH later. And according to Francis, it was Rick that had changed and wasn't always a nice guy anymore. Of course, we don't know. So both to crew, management and to band members...Francis could be argued to have shown great loyalty with many very lasting and enduring relationships. Despite being the public face of the band during the 70's heyday, he certainly wasn't the star of the live show....with Alan hogging most of the vocals in the first half of the set. That doesn't suggest a particularly difficult character. My very limited understanding of Blackmore is that everyone other than his wife found him difficult to work with! I think Francis get's flak for his personality from us fans largely because we believe he drove the band in the wrong direction. If every post heyday album had been a blissful boogie workout....he would still be revered as a rock god, and I doubt his character would be questioned. Interesting comments about the other "frantics" being jeolous of his partnership with Bob. Can anyone add more to that? Of course there's all the disappointment that Francis didn't want to continue with "the frantics", and of course some of the ridiculous things he's said about it and the bands legacy. Yes he's expressed himself badly. Yes he is contrary and hard to understand. But difficult to work with? For lots of people who've been around him for decades...no.... he isn't. Good points. It had been telling that at one time Francis and Rick had gone off to 'secret' rehearsals with Kenney Jones which could have changed history somewhat. Though after that potential banana skin the band became more gang-like. From what I understand, from those who know the band more closely, that there had been ego problems that grew in time between certain band members. Francis possibly wasn't a pushy leader in the early days but I get the impression that he could have gone off with Bob Young at any given time, even during the 'glory years', as the band were having disputes over material. Alan and Rick were concerned as far back as '74 that Francis wasn't giving all his time to the band as he was writing other stuff with Bob. Hence why the Quo album '74 has a certain flavour because Alan and Rick had to start working on Quo material together. The awkwardness with Francis, as such, could be seen as being that he seemed to stop listening to the others in the band and the fans and later mainly working with Bernie rather than as a band co-operative and doing things his way in the studios. Some folk believe he had ambitions long ago to make Quo the Francis Rossi band. I believe Francis is known as No. 1 in Quo circles and he may dispute that and all being equal, but he does have his hands on the wheel. Strange one though, as Francis did say that at the reunions that Alan conceeded that Francis was always the main man in Quo. Flies in the face of Francis usually saying that Rick, especially, and himself had been equals. I think Francis would have liked to have been as revered as Jeff Lynne in terms of songwriting on a broader spectrum.
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Post by QuocaQuola1 on Apr 11, 2020 13:19:00 GMT
I was surprised to see Andy on this. He deserved better than to be treated as a member of the crew. Then again, not being included in the photo may have made him feel totally forgotten! I don't sense tension with francis, andy and rhino. Nor previously with jeff. I think they've all accepted their place within the band. I don't think rhino or andy expect to make decisions, and know how far they can press to influence one. In fairness to francis,from 71-81 the line up was of course extremely stable - something Blackmore couldn't have achieved? Drugs came in and the band split. All contributed to it. From then on, francis had to drive the band forward as nobody else was doing it. And why should he have treated newcomers as equals? Of course much later things went sour with Rick. But that was MUCH later. And according to Francis, it was Rick that had changed and wasn't always a nice guy anymore. Of course, we don't know. So both to crew, management and to band members...Francis could be argued to have shown great loyalty with many very lasting and enduring relationships. Despite being the public face of the band during the 70's heyday, he certainly wasn't the star of the live show....with Alan hogging most of the vocals in the first half of the set. That doesn't suggest a particularly difficult character. My very limited understanding of Blackmore is that everyone other than his wife found him difficult to work with! I think Francis get's flak for his personality from us fans largely because we believe he drove the band in the wrong direction. If every post heyday album had been a blissful boogie workout....he would still be revered as a rock god, and I doubt his character would be questioned. Interesting comments about the other "frantics" being jeolous of his partnership with Bob. Can anyone add more to that? Of course there's all the disappointment that Francis didn't want to continue with "the frantics", and of course some of the ridiculous things he's said about it and the bands legacy. Yes he's expressed himself badly. Yes he is contrary and hard to understand. But difficult to work with? For lots of people who've been around him for decades...no.... he isn't. Good points. It had been telling that at one time Francis and Rick had gone off to 'secret' rehearsals with Kenney Jones which could have changed history somewhat. Though after that potential banana skin the band became more gang-like. From what I understand, from those who know the band more closely, that there had been ego problems that grew in time between certain band members. Francis possibly wasn't a pushy leader in the early days but I get the impression that he could have gone off with Bob Young at any given time, even during the 'glory years', as the band were having disputes over material. Alan and Rick were concerned as far back as '74 that Francis wasn't giving all his time to the band as he was writing other stuff with Bob. Hence why the Quo album '74 has a certain flavour because Alan and Rick had to start working on Quo material together. The awkwardness with Francis, as such, could be seen as being that he seemed to stop listening to the others in the band and the fans and later mainly working with Bernie rather than as a band co-operative and doing things his way in the studios. Some folk believe he had ambitions long ago to make Quo the Francis Rossi band. I believe Francis is known as No. 1 in Quo circles and he may dispute that and all being equal, but he does have his hands on the wheel. I think he would have liked to have been as revered as Jeff Lynne in terms of songwriting on a broader spectrum. The way I look at it, they made and continue to make a lotta folk happy through the power of music, so regardless of wether they were wankers or saints, they weren’t controversial and delivered the bare essence of what makes music what it is.
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Post by fretbuzzzzz on Apr 11, 2020 13:28:25 GMT
Good points. It had been telling that at one time Francis and Rick had gone off to 'secret' rehearsals with Kenney Jones which could have changed history somewhat. Though after that potential banana skin the band became more gang-like. From what I understand, from those who know the band more closely, that there had been ego problems that grew in time between certain band members. Francis possibly wasn't a pushy leader in the early days but I get the impression that he could have gone off with Bob Young at any given time, even during the 'glory years', as the band were having disputes over material. Alan and Rick were concerned as far back as '74 that Francis wasn't giving all his time to the band as he was writing other stuff with Bob. Hence why the Quo album '74 has a certain flavour because Alan and Rick had to start working on Quo material together. The awkwardness with Francis, as such, could be seen as being that he seemed to stop listening to the others in the band and the fans and later mainly working with Bernie rather than as a band co-operative and doing things his way in the studios. Some folk believe he had ambitions long ago to make Quo the Francis Rossi band. I believe Francis is known as No. 1 in Quo circles and he may dispute that and all being equal, but he does have his hands on the wheel. I think he would have liked to have been as revered as Jeff Lynne in terms of songwriting on a broader spectrum. The way I look at it, they made and continue to make a lotta folk happy through the power of music, so regardless of wether they were wankers or saints, they weren’t controversial and delivered the bare essence of what makes music what it is. You're being far too sensible for this board QuocaQuola 1 !
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gav
Veteran Rocker Rollin'
Posts: 2,152
Favourite Quo Album: On The Level
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Post by gav on Apr 11, 2020 14:00:13 GMT
With regards Andy, didn't Francis say that the lyrics to "Backing Off" from Backbone were inspired by a conversation with him?
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Post by QuocaQuola1 on Apr 11, 2020 14:15:06 GMT
The way I look at it, they made and continue to make a lotta folk happy through the power of music, so regardless of wether they were wankers or saints, they weren’t controversial and delivered the bare essence of what makes music what it is. You're being far too sensible for this board QuocaQuola 1 ! Thought that reading over my post checking for spelling errors. Rossi’s a yobbo!
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gerh
Grizzled Rocker Rollin'
Posts: 2,963
Favourite Quo Album: 'Hello' [and 'Quo Live']
Favourite other bands.: Zappa, Kansas, Rush, Deep Purple, Yes, Richard Thompson, Horslips, Rory Gallagher, Thin Lizzy, Judas Priest etc etc. [ANYONE but Kiss!]
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Post by gerh on Apr 12, 2020 18:59:54 GMT
Had Ritchie been more open to other musicians suggestions and possible contributions I'm sure the output would have been much better and the line up more stable but even the Rising sessions were nightmarish, there was so much material that was cut, songs totally rearranged, certainly it drove Ronnie and me to absolute distraction. Also Ritchie wanted hit records and to be in singles charts far more than to be recognised for musical and creative prowess. Interesting stuff Tony (@bluehighway) - I've always wondered how, especially Jon Lord but also Roger Glover and Ian Paice got along with that side of RB's 'foibles'. I think we're aware by now of how difficult Ian Gillan has found it - but I'd love to know how something like, say, 'Burn' [the song] was arrived at and is SO devastatingly good [imho - of course!] if he's SO seemingly awkward to work with.
G
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2020 19:21:38 GMT
I didn’t miss Andy for a second in 2013/14. Some Quo music was enhanced by the keyboards but for the long haul if i had to vote yes or no for keys it would be a big no
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2020 19:38:01 GMT
Maybe one day a proper film like Elton's r Freddie's will be produced..but who's story would it tell...many versions out there .if one was made into a film it would be rossi and that would be one sided his version.i would love to hear nuffs version...sadly we wont hear Rick's now unless his son puts one out. Whatever people feel it cant be denied Lancaster rightly or wrongly became bitter and any account of his would likely stray further from the truth than anybody else that had involvement in the band
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Post by wolfman on Apr 12, 2020 20:12:33 GMT
Maybe one day a proper film like Elton's r Freddie's will be produced..but who's story would it tell...many versions out there .if one was made into a film it would be rossi and that would be one sided his version.i would love to hear nuffs version...sadly we wont hear Rick's now unless his son puts one out. Whatever people feel it cant be denied Lancaster rightly or wrongly became bitter and any account of his would likely stray further from the truth than anybody else that had involvement in the band maybe so but I will still like to hear nuffs side...
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