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Post by Gaz on Feb 4, 2020 22:22:56 GMT
Got nothing to do with length of that album. Pip was hired for one final crack at the USA and the sound was purposefully lightened. Pip has defended those actions on numerous occasions in interviews when having to defend the criticism of how it turned out. He said he acted under instruction and the band were happy with it at the time. But the fans were definitely not. Yes I’ve heard that and seems an odd excuse as I can’t recall other bands having to lighten their album sound to suit the American market as in The Stones, Who, DC, Rainbow (@bluehighway may have an input into this theory), or even Elton John etc. I can’t even recall any of America’s successful rock bands having to lightening their sound on vinyl. Whatever the reason Quo went ahead with the tinny release of RAOTW and it backfired both ways. Anyway I’m so glad John Eden corrected the album as, for me , it scrapes into the classic album era alongside Piledriver through to Blue For You.
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Post by sqcollector on Feb 4, 2020 22:38:52 GMT
I just had a squiz at some of AC/DC’s albums recorded in the same era, recorded at Sydney’s Albert Studios, which all sound crystal clear and retain the heaviness of the band, and here are the length of those: 1975. High Voltage...40 minutes 1975. TNT...42 minutes 1976. Dirty Deeds...42 minutes 1977. Let There Be Rock...40 minutes 1978 (the magnificent) Powerage...40 minutes 1979. Highway To Hell...42minutes 1980. Back In Black ..42 minutes (recorded in the Bahamas) They all sound brilliant 21 minutes is different than 22. Yes, one minute difference, but still a difference that good engineers can work with. Besides, there are techniques to avoid this, like using pre-emphasis. I don't understand why Quo didn't use it, to be honest with you. Also, if you want more extreme examples, Ain't Complaining and ITAN were lengthier than RAOTW and were also released in vinyl, with better sound. This is to say that the length could have affected the sound. Generally, slower/lighter songs would make the closing track on a side, because they don't have so much amplitude and that can help (no need to cut bass frequencies on other songs, for instance). So other lengthier albums you are aware of might have used this trick. It all really depends. I really don't think the thin sound was something they wanted to do, but something they had to do, for some reason.
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Post by sqcollector on Feb 4, 2020 22:45:35 GMT
Got nothing to do with length of that album. Pip was hired for one final crack at the USA and the sound was purposefully lightened. Pip has defended those actions on numerous occasions in interviews when having to defend the criticism of how it turned out. He said he acted under instruction and the band were happy with it at the time. But the fans were definitely not. That was in regards to the arrangements (percussion, horns, etc.), that weren't typical for Quo, if I recall correctly. The lighter production, not the lack of oomph. Different things. Sure, the sound was lighter, but it's not the bass alone that makes a song lighter or heavier. It all depends on how the bass, guitars, drums, organs, etc. sit on the mix. Take Invitation, from ITAN. The original release has the bass upfront and it's actually a very warm sound. Yet, not heavy, production-wise. I agree, though, that the bass can make a song heavier, yes.
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Post by sqcollector on Feb 4, 2020 22:50:23 GMT
Yes I’ve heard that and seems an odd excuse as I can’t recall other bands having to lighten their album sound to suit the American market as in The Stones, Who, DC, Rainbow (@bluehighway may have an input into this theory), or even Elton John etc. I can’t even recall any of America’s successful rock bands having to lightening their sound on vinyl. Whatever the reason Quo went ahead with the tinny release of RAOTW and it backfired both ways. Anyway I’m so glad John Eden corrected the album as, for me , it scrapes into the classic album era alongside Piledriver through to Blue For You. I think the idea was, to compete on the American market, they wanted to add a more complex sound. The percussion, the synths and pianos more to the front. I think the idea for the American market was to have a more polished sound. If you listen to Toto or even AC/DC, like you mentioned, you'll see the sound, even though strong, is not as raw as Quo's was. The sound was more polished, more separated. Bands like Toto also had the percussion. The Who, Rainbow, Deep Purple, Elton John etc. all had well audible keyboards. Hence why I say the thin mix was something they had to do for some reason, not something they wanted to do. If you listen to the Riva remix for Whatever You Want, you'll see the sound is not thin at all. Just has some keyboards, some FX/processing and the vocals pushed more to the front. EDIT: Oops, sorry for the three posts in a row heh
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Post by Detroit on Feb 4, 2020 23:22:14 GMT
4 words to describe this album to me:
What a let down.
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Post by fretbuzzzzz on Feb 4, 2020 23:27:47 GMT
From a marketing perspective Pip has said that the Record Company were right behind the album and hyping it up in some style. Think he said it was probably the last time that the Record company and their staff, the Band, the Press and of course himself gathered en masse in a special playback room at the company offices to listen to an entire album when it was finished.
If there had been any doubts or reservations about the album then I imagine it was too late at the time to do anything about it as there had been some pressure to get the album out and especially with releasing the lead-in single as quickly as possible. They started recording in the summer and had the single released by Sept '77. They worked overtime to crack on with the dubs etc and then started mixing the single one evening at midnight at Threshold studios and worked through to 8 in the morning to get it completed on time. Francis had been more than happy with the finished version of the single at the time. The album itself had been later mixed at the Marquee.
They actually started work on Rockin' in terms of working through the basics of the proposed tracks in the early summer at Alan's house/garage. The last time they did anything like this apparently, as they rarely rehearsed songs in this way with later albums.
Then they had a set back in terms of timings as they went out to a studio in Dublin initially to record before realising that the studios were not up to the job. Then had to think about re-locating and looked at studios in Europe before finally settling on Bohus.
It has been said that, as well as the running time issues, that the sound was compromised by close miking of the band's amps/cabs etc and JC's drums for separation reasons. The studio was carpeted at the time, which I know John Eden wasn't too pleased about. He preferred hard floors for recording and capturing a more live or alive sound. Studio Bohus has hard flooring these days. They also put up a couple of mics to capture some natural open room ambience and used a couple of tracks for this, but they ran out of tracks in the recording process and had to abandon the room mics and use their tracks for the automation codes.
Perhaps it was felt that Quo's wall of sound would not work for the American market and hence the tidy up.
In some respects we were fortunate as dedicated fans to have had quite a long run of albums that didn't stray too far from each other before the more significant changes with Rockin'. I remember Mike Rutherford saying that Genesis always tried to record a very different album with every release. I guess for creativity reasons mainly and probably not thinking too much about the fans beyond hoping they would 'get it' and approve of an album in due course when finally released.
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Post by Mrs Flittersnoop on Feb 5, 2020 10:52:28 GMT
Interesting thank you.
Quo would have worked beautifully for the American market as a psychedelic band. But as a boogie band they didn't have the "growl" that America seems to like, and as a pop band they had too much competition.
(I don't remember Genesis albums being much different one from another till Peter left the band ... Sorry Mike. Except the Lamb, and that was mainly twice as long.)
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gav
Veteran Rocker Rollin'
Posts: 2,161
Favourite Quo Album: On The Level
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Post by gav on Feb 5, 2020 17:32:00 GMT
I was always under the impression that the sound was more down to the fact it was mastered for radio, ie. small transistor radio speakers, radio being a much much bigger marketing tool in the States with an enormous reach.
I think this has been implied on more than one occasion by Pip et al.
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Post by curiousgirl on Feb 5, 2020 17:38:29 GMT
I was always under the impression that the sound was more down to the fact it was mastered for radio, ie. small transistor radio speakers, radio being a much much bigger marketing tool in the States with an enormous reach. I think this has been implied on more than one occasion by Pip et al. That was my understanding too.
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Post by Quoincidence on Feb 5, 2020 17:41:56 GMT
I was always under the impression that the sound was more down to the fact it was mastered for radio, ie. small transistor radio speakers, radio being a much much bigger marketing tool in the States with an enormous reach. I think this has been implied on more than one occasion by Pip et al. Definitely not done for radio purposes, as a different mix of Rockin' All Over The World was broadcast at the time on radio airwaves prior to it's release as a single (IIRC). Someone mentioned it to John on his youtube channel. Early mixes / rough mixes back then weren't uncommon to be sent to radio or TV stations to be used. There's a full version of Something 'Bout You Baby I Like on youtube somewhere from a TV playback performance, with live vocals... and another video with an early mix for What You're Proposing, but I've not seen that one for a while. Just like the early version of Marguerita Time which can be heard on the Cannon & Ball appearance.
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Post by fretbuzzzzz on Feb 5, 2020 19:37:29 GMT
I was always under the impression that the sound was more down to the fact it was mastered for radio, ie. small transistor radio speakers, radio being a much much bigger marketing tool in the States with an enormous reach. I think this has been implied on more than one occasion by Pip et al. As far as I'm aware, they only mixed the single on radio friendly Auratone speakers, which makes sense in a way. The Marquee was booked out at that moment in time and so they used Threshold studios. They used the Auratones at Threshold. They then moved on later to the Marquee to mix the album. Francis and Pip were impressed with the resulting mix and master of the single. There was probably no factor on its own that created the resulting album and it would have been a combination of all the things we have talked about in the thread that came into play. Essentially the wall of sound had to go for this album, no over-spill and instead they went with what was probably seen as more sophisticated arrangements, separation and extra instrument/percussion dubs etc.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2020 23:08:11 GMT
The first Quo album I heard when it was new, the previous classic albums had all been catch up. I was really surprised at the big change in sound and production but I actually really enjoyed the album for what it was, a pop/rock album with no pretensions to be pure rock or blues rock. I'm not one who likes to constantly compare a new album with its predecessors, I'd sooner judge it on its own merits rather than a tickbox approach to how it satisfies certain "essentials". At the time I do remember thinking it was very much a Francis driven album, hence the much lighter tone and back then it was certainly Francis who was irked most by Quo's failure to make any big impact on the American music scene. As many have already said this album and especially single were very radio friendly and the US music industry was very heavily driven by radio stations back then. With only radio and tv, bands were dependent on getting their single A listed if they wanted to break through. I also though it was a clever ploy to issue a song, albeit not a massively well known one, written by a musical legend in America. Presumably thinking that the John Fogerty connection would garner them more publicity. As for bands like Rainbow (not) changing their sound as Gaz mentioned, maybe the essential sound didn't change but the song writing style obviously did. The different visions of Ronnie who wrote for musical creativity and Ritchie who hankered after hit singles and the hit parade. That was the reason Ronnie walked. In a way very similar to the different visions of the band of Alan and Francis. Something that in the long run was never going to work or end happily.
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Post by rockonquo on Feb 6, 2020 5:09:22 GMT
Haven't listened to the album in quite a while, we'll put it in the car a get back to you.
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Post by blagult on Feb 6, 2020 9:42:56 GMT
I was always under the impression that the sound was more down to the fact it was mastered for radio, ie. small transistor radio speakers, radio being a much much bigger marketing tool in the States with an enormous reach. I think this has been implied on more than one occasion by Pip et al. Definitely not done for radio purposes, as a different mix of Rockin' All Over The World was broadcast at the time on radio airwaves prior to it's release as a single (IIRC). Someone mentioned it to John on his youtube channel. Early mixes / rough mixes back then weren't uncommon to be sent to radio or TV stations to be used. There's a full version of Something 'Bout You Baby I Like on youtube somewhere from a TV playback performance, with live vocals... and another video with an early mix for What You're Proposing, but I've not seen that one for a while. Just like the early version of Marguerita Time which can be heard on the Cannon & Ball appearance. Your spot on there. John Peel was the very first DJ to play Rockin. And it was at least a month before it’s official release. I was sick of waiting for it at the end. I remember there was a snipit in Sounds saying delay was due to the Poster delay which was supposed to come with the Pic sleeve ltd edition of the Single. Probably not the reason but that poster was eventually printed. That John Peel playback that evening was most definitely a different mix. It was as you would expect. Chalk and cheese to the official release. I wonder wether he played an early acetate mix or something. Wish that mix could be found again. Could be still in his archives maybe ?
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Post by charles on Feb 6, 2020 11:08:12 GMT
... As for bands like Rainbow (not) changing their sound as Gaz mentioned, maybe the essential sound didn't change but the song writing style obviously did. The different visions of Ronnie who wrote for musical creativity and Ritchie who hankered after hit singles and the hit parade. That was the reason Ronnie walked. In a way very similar to the different visions of the band of Alan and Francis. Something that in the long run was never going to work or end happily. True! I did buy Down to Earth with Graham, Difficult to Cure and Straight Between the Eyes with JLT, and play them every once in a while because I like them. The sound is very American though, which is a euphemism for bland, safe and sugary. Everyone did it at the time (and suffered the consequences: think Saxon, Judas Priest, et al.) Thank the gods for Rainbow's Dio (& Bluehighway) albums.
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