matt
Veteran Rocker Rollin'
Posts: 1,010
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Post by matt on Dec 11, 2020 8:26:24 GMT
You've lost me im afraid.
Last post on this from me as this thread has gone south. The original post was asking what makes a shuffle a shuffle. There is no way to explain this without discussing musical theory.
"it feels good" is not an explanation of what makes a shuffle a shuffle.
Lets get back to being angry about Alans treatment in 1984
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Post by Gaz on Dec 11, 2020 10:29:30 GMT
Oh ffs stop it you lot😂
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2020 11:25:08 GMT
You've lost me im afraid. Last post on this from me as this thread has gone south. The original post was asking what makes a shuffle a shuffle. There is no way to explain this without discussing musical theory. "it feels good" is not an explanation of what makes a shuffle a shuffle. Lets get back to being angry about Alans treatment in 1984I know Christmas is supposedly the time for chestnuts but some old ones are way past reheating.
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Post by 4th Chord on Dec 11, 2020 13:31:15 GMT
Where's the mods when you need them?
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mortified
4500 Timer
Posts: 5,860
Favourite Quo Album: Hello!
Favourite other bands.: Talking Heads, Rolling Stones, Sheryl Crow, Gary Numan, Alabama 3, ZZ Top, Paul van Dyk, Jeff Beck, Bowie, Gerry Rafferty, Band of Skulls, UFO, S.A.H.B
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Post by mortified on Dec 11, 2020 14:42:57 GMT
Where's the mods when you need them? Bit nippy for the beach at Brighton, although I always envied them the parkas during the Quo winter tours
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Post by blagult on Dec 11, 2020 14:53:47 GMT
Anything that goes “ Chug ch chug ch chug ch chug in a sort of lazy half speed way ! That’s my interpretation of a shuffle and Quo were experts in that particular field. 😂 And it’s something I was partial to.
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Post by Gaz on Dec 12, 2020 0:20:18 GMT
Where's the mods when you need them? Exactly 4th, you'll see none of these repetitive arguments on the 'John Coghlan's Quo' section which I moderate on this board. You wouldn't believe the constant bickering which goes on it, unnoticed, by most on here. No, I run a very tight ship on that section and have kicked out many folk to the naughty corner.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2020 0:31:29 GMT
Where's the mods when you need them? Exactly 4th, you'll see none of these repetitive arguments on the 'John Coghlan's Quo' section which I moderate on this board. You wouldn't believe the constant bickering which goes on it, unnoticed, by most on here. No, I run a very tight ship on that section and have kicked out many folk to the naughty corner. Is it time for a coup d'etat? Gaz for el Presidente!
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Post by Gaz on Dec 12, 2020 0:46:08 GMT
Exactly 4th, you'll see none of these repetitive arguments on the 'John Coghlan's Quo' section which I moderate on this board. You wouldn't believe the constant bickering which goes on it, unnoticed, by most on here. No, I run a very tight ship on that section and have kicked out many folk to the naughty corner. Is it time for a coup d'etat? Gaz for el Presidente! Haha noooo thanks Tony. My 1 minute each day on the JCQ section is enough stress for me.
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Post by 4th Chord on Dec 12, 2020 10:29:16 GMT
Where's the mods when you need them? Exactly 4th, you'll see none of these repetitive arguments on the 'John Coghlan's Quo' section which I moderate on this board. You wouldn't believe the constant bickering which goes on it, unnoticed, by most on here. No, I run a very tight ship on that section and have kicked out many folk to the naughty corner. You run a tight ship mate, not a shite tip.
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Post by frozenhero on Dec 23, 2020 17:09:28 GMT
The cards are being shuffled again! Are Quo the only major rock band to have added jigs and reels etc ? Seems like the other rock bands of Quo's era played straight blues rock ,but Quo played beefed up 50's rock n roll,but with shuffle,traditional arrangements and a nod to blues rock. I think this explains why other rock music can be soulful or sad etc whereas Quo can offer sheer euphoria I think it's the happiness of Quo's music that makes me love it more than any other band. The blend of influences are unique Gary Moore: U2 have done a few songs with a shuffle beat. As did Rory. Michael Jackson has two shuffle beat songs with The Way You Make Me Feel being the most famous example. And he was accused to have ripped it off from Tears for Fears' "Everybody Wants to Rule the World"! TFF, in turns, got the idea from The Simple Minds' "Waterfront". Pink Floyd were also very good at the shuffle - "One of These Days", Part 6 of "Shine On You Crazy Diamond", "Sheep". "The Travel Sequence" (only played live) is almost 4500x-ish in how it starts out as a fast rock rhythm but then breaks into a shuffle. Never listened to them so can't comment. I know the hit singles ,trad music yes,heavy rock n roll no Look Away is a big, loud shuffle.
I don't think anybody uses "9/8" for standard rhythms. There's 3/4, 6/8 and 12/8, which is really enough for most cases. 3/4 with the swing feel, is exactly the same as the standard 9/8. Which is why nobody calls it that. You just write a 3/4 and then put in triplets for the divisions. By your logic, Pink Floyd's Money would be a 21/8! - 12 bar blues is shuffled, from day 0 up until the rock n roll boom in the 50s, which then becomes 12 bar rock n roll. - a shuffle's in 4/4, the difference being instead of it being 'dunk dunk dunk dunk', there's a looseness added with an 'and' or 'a' between each count: 'dunk-a dunk-a dunk-a dunk-a' You're right about the dunka dunka part. What's interesting about this though is that it can be accomplished in several ways. With Quo, the drums typically do NOT emphasize the third triplet - the bass does. That's the way I personally prefer it, ROLD is the prime example. Some people like Jim Keltner emphasize the triplets on the drums (either snare or bass drum) and it sounds odd to me, like it's stumbling over itself. On the other hand, there is straight 12 bar blues. The most well-known example? B.B. King's "The Thrill is Gone" (and he had several more examples like "My Baby's Comin' Home" or all the twist stuff he did like "Bad Case of Love"). But what makes Quo's (and ZZ Top's) shuffle so appealing is this a cross of a shuffle and a regular rock beat. The vocals and drums are mostly straight (perhaps with shuffle accents on hi-hat or ride), whereas the bass and rhythm guitar do all the shuffling. That's how you end up with DUNK pause du DUNK pause du DUNK - not DUNK pause DUNK DUNK pause DUNK DUNK which tends to get annoying after a while. Here's an American (I presume) spending 20 minutes teaching us how to play basic '12 Bar Blues', which you would assume would be the basis of Quo songs like Paper Plane and Caroline, but no, his 12 bar blues is actually the basic shuffle that we are discussing here. Hence the probable lack of transparency on these different rhythms as mentioned by the OP. And as we've discussed the shuffle so far, then technically what are Quo playing in PP and Caroline? I always assumed it was 12 bar boogie and that WYW was the shuffle. Am I confused?? The confusion starts way back. I'm not sure if John Lee Hooker was the source of the confusion but he certainly amplified it when he played guitar shuffles and called them "boogies" as in "Boogie Chillen", the blueprint of almost all these blues shuffles á la Roadhouse Blues. Previously "boogie" (boogie-woogie) was a piano style based on ostinati which do not have to have a swing or shuffle feel. And people use "12 bar" way too often when talking about Quo, when in fact few of their songs (including those you mentioned) actually ascribe to a 12 bar format. 12 bar is not a rhythm, you can play it straight too. It's just rockstar narcissism at it's finest. Every damn drummer can play a shuffle lmao Ringo wasn't too good at it, sounds rather stiff. At the end of With a Little Help from My Friends he really drags it out. Btw, if you want narcissism, have a read of Francis' book. Never known a guy to blame everything else but himself for his issues. It's pathetic I've seen exactly the same comment underneath a story about Eric Clapton. People saying they didn't like him anymore after reading his autobiography. I guess I'm just not noticing it
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Post by QuocaQuola1 on Dec 24, 2020 15:36:10 GMT
The cards are being shuffled again! Are Quo the only major rock band to have added jigs and reels etc ? Seems like the other rock bands of Quo's era played straight blues rock ,but Quo played beefed up 50's rock n roll,but with shuffle,traditional arrangements and a nod to blues rock. I think this explains why other rock music can be soulful or sad etc whereas Quo can offer sheer euphoria I think it's the happiness of Quo's music that makes me love it more than any other band. The blend of influences are unique Gary Moore: U2 have done a few songs with a shuffle beat. As did Rory. Michael Jackson has two shuffle beat songs with The Way You Make Me Feel being the most famous example. And he was accused to have ripped it off from Tears for Fears' "Everybody Wants to Rule the World"! TFF, in turns, got the idea from The Simple Minds' "Waterfront". Pink Floyd were also very good at the shuffle - "One of These Days", Part 6 of "Shine On You Crazy Diamond", "Sheep". "The Travel Sequence" (only played live) is almost 4500x-ish in how it starts out as a fast rock rhythm but then breaks into a shuffle. Never listened to them so can't comment. I know the hit singles ,trad music yes,heavy rock n roll no Look Away is a big, loud shuffle.
I don't think anybody uses "9/8" for standard rhythms. There's 3/4, 6/8 and 12/8, which is really enough for most cases. 3/4 with the swing feel, is exactly the same as the standard 9/8. Which is why nobody calls it that. You just write a 3/4 and then put in triplets for the divisions. By your logic, Pink Floyd's Money would be a 21/8! - 12 bar blues is shuffled, from day 0 up until the rock n roll boom in the 50s, which then becomes 12 bar rock n roll. - a shuffle's in 4/4, the difference being instead of it being 'dunk dunk dunk dunk', there's a looseness added with an 'and' or 'a' between each count: 'dunk-a dunk-a dunk-a dunk-a' You're right about the dunka dunka part. What's interesting about this though is that it can be accomplished in several ways. With Quo, the drums typically do NOT emphasize the third triplet - the bass does. That's the way I personally prefer it, ROLD is the prime example. Some people like Jim Keltner emphasize the triplets on the drums (either snare or bass drum) and it sounds odd to me, like it's stumbling over itself. On the other hand, there is straight 12 bar blues. The most well-known example? B.B. King's "The Thrill is Gone" (and he had several more examples like "My Baby's Comin' Home" or all the twist stuff he did like "Bad Case of Love"). But what makes Quo's (and ZZ Top's) shuffle so appealing is this a cross of a shuffle and a regular rock beat. The vocals and drums are mostly straight (perhaps with shuffle accents on hi-hat or ride), whereas the bass and rhythm guitar do all the shuffling. That's how you end up with DUNK pause du DUNK pause du DUNK - not DUNK pause DUNK DUNK pause DUNK DUNK which tends to get annoying after a while. Here's an American (I presume) spending 20 minutes teaching us how to play basic '12 Bar Blues', which you would assume would be the basis of Quo songs like Paper Plane and Caroline, but no, his 12 bar blues is actually the basic shuffle that we are discussing here. Hence the probable lack of transparency on these different rhythms as mentioned by the OP. And as we've discussed the shuffle so far, then technically what are Quo playing in PP and Caroline? I always assumed it was 12 bar boogie and that WYW was the shuffle. Am I confused?? The confusion starts way back. I'm not sure if John Lee Hooker was the source of the confusion but he certainly amplified it when he played guitar shuffles and called them "boogies" as in "Boogie Chillen", the blueprint of almost all these blues shuffles á la Roadhouse Blues. Previously "boogie" (boogie-woogie) was a piano style based on ostinati which do not have to have a swing or shuffle feel. And people use "12 bar" way too often when talking about Quo, when in fact few of their songs (including those you mentioned) actually ascribe to a 12 bar format. 12 bar is not a rhythm, you can play it straight too. It's just rockstar narcissism at it's finest. Every damn drummer can play a shuffle lmao Ringo wasn't too good at it, sounds rather stiff. At the end of With a Little Help from My Friends he really drags it out. Btw, if you want narcissism, have a read of Francis' book. Never known a guy to blame everything else but himself for his issues. It's pathetic I've seen exactly the same comment underneath a story about Eric Clapton. People saying they didn't like him anymore after reading his autobiography. I guess I'm just not noticing it That's what I'm getting at. There's no single way to shuffle, using your examples, ZZ Top a la La Grange uses a more oldschool shall we say approach, the Texas shuffle, with the snare remaining prominent through the full bar, like a train driving over trampolines. Gary's (God) Walking By Myself uses that closer to Quo's in keeping everything straight as an arrow. Both being a shuffle, the key phrase again being shuffle, and something that isn't a shuffle can't be a shuffle no matter how high the primary figure of the time signature goes.
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Post by frozenhero on Dec 30, 2020 19:39:27 GMT
I've been thinking about this a bit more. When I talk to my jazz playing dad and mention shuffle he doesn't mean the same thing as pop and rock bands mean when they say shuffle. What he would call shuffle is not a dunk - didunk - didunk rhythm but a PAHWOOM - PAHDOOM - PAHRUM - PAHDUM one. Like this track (which also, incidentally, boasts perhaps the sickest guitar tone pre-1966): Although that song was clearly inspired by "Dust My Broom", that actually has a straighter shuffle. It doesn't jump all over the place like B.B.'s song does. All of these rhythms can be traced back to blues. There's... ...straight 8th blues like "Stones in My Passway", "Rollin' and Tumblin'", "I Can't Be Satisfied" ...guitar boogie á la John Lee Hooker, which informs "Roadhouse Blues" and therefore also Quo ...and the urbanized version, as referenced above. As for O Baby, that has an interesting texture but I don't think there are any odd meters in it. It's actually slower than it sounds - there's an almost ska-ish offbeat on every second eight note, but it mostly follows a normal 12-bar structure. The role model here is Jimmy Reed's "Big Boss Man". There are triplets in O Baby but only in John's drum rolls, which are 16th triplets if I'm not mistaken. (If you don't agree with my interpretation of the offbeat you could also say it's a fast 24 bar blues!) So, I'm not sure anyone needed to hear this, but I had to get it off my chest Thumpa-thumpa-thumpa.
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gerh
Grizzled Rocker Rollin'
Posts: 2,950
Favourite Quo Album: 'Hello' [and 'Quo Live']
Favourite other bands.: Zappa, Kansas, Rush, Deep Purple, Yes, Richard Thompson, Horslips, Rory Gallagher, Thin Lizzy, Judas Priest etc etc. [ANYONE but Kiss!]
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Post by gerh on Dec 30, 2020 19:48:14 GMT
Gee - who'd have thought such an 'innocent' musical topic ["Shuffles"] would generate SO many words?
It reminded me about this...
I'm with Zappa on this... just 'Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar', [or whatever your method of musical expression is!]
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Post by frozenhero on Dec 30, 2020 19:48:37 GMT
Speaking of Jimmy Reed and shuffles, here's something for all the guitar players:
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