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Post by twentytwenty on Oct 16, 2020 16:36:24 GMT
After the great production they had on In Search Of The Fourth Chord with Pip Williams, why the hell did they go back to the Rossi/Paxman route for QPQ? The hihat sounds like it's been mic'd up with an iPhone and given it's the same mixing-engineer they had on Fourth Chord, it's evident that it's bad production techniques that's the problem.
The weird about it all is that Rossi produced One Step At A Time together with Jackman (The mixing engineer from Fourth Chord and QPQ) that also mixed the solo album, and that sounds great.
What was their problem with QPQ then? Why does it sound so badly recorded? They obviously know what they're doing? Is Paxman the problem here?
I mean, imagine QPQ and Heavy Traffic with the same production Fourth Chord have, it would have been purely amazing
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Post by Victor on Oct 16, 2020 17:34:31 GMT
Hmmm, to each their own...I like the production on QPQ far better then on ISOTFC. Especially the voices which were more in the background on QPQ which I prefer far over the voices in the front productions
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Post by sqcollector on Oct 16, 2020 17:35:29 GMT
I actually like the sound of Quid Pro Quo a lot, except the hi-hats. To me, they have only two problems: 1) too much sizzle (no need to boost the treble that much on them) and 2) how loud they are in the mix. The other cymbals sit well, in my opinion. But I wouldn't mind if the other cymbals would be a bit quieter as well (but I tend to like darker mixes).
I don't think the sound production of this album has anything to do with Heavy Traffic or The Party... album. Not comparable. Those were a bit weaker. It seems Mike Paxman was trying too hard to place the guitars on the front, through EQ or multi band compression on mids and low mids to bring them forth even more. The result? Muddiness.
Quid Pro Quo has the guitars at the front and it doesn't have a hollow sound nor a muddy sound. But yeah, those hats... They literally prevent me from listening to the album more often, especially with headphones.
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Post by sqcollector on Oct 16, 2020 17:42:43 GMT
Especially the voices which were more in the background on QPQ which I prefer far over the voices in the front productions I also prefer the voice to be a bit more down in the mix. That's one of the things I didn't like about the RAOTW remix. John Eden placed the vocals so on top of the mix on some songs... And with more than enough compression and automation to guarantee they'd stay there. A good example is on You Don't Own Me. On that part where Alan just sings quieter, you hear his voice being quieter, but you actually listen to more volume. There is no balance between that part and the part right before and after, where he is projecting more the voice. On the original mix there is balance between these parts.
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Post by fretbuzzzzz on Oct 16, 2020 17:54:26 GMT
The interesting thing with QPQ had been that many fans believed the album had been recorded in the old tradition of the band in a live room and putting tracks down, but that wasn't the case.
QPQ is a much more lively album, drum wise, than say Backbone (even though I rate Backbone) and my only real criticism would be that QPQ is too damn long and including some meandering tracks of no real value. Perhaps not an issue in the digital age but nonetheless I think may of us long term Quo fans loved the concise and compact Quo albums of the past, where they seemed to know instinctively about side 1 and side 2 etc. Out of the band's hands to some degree these days and has been all about throwing enough mud at the wall and some of it will stick.
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Post by fretbuzzzzz on Oct 16, 2020 17:57:38 GMT
Especially the voices which were more in the background on QPQ which I prefer far over the voices in the front productions I also prefer the voice to be a bit more down in the mix. That's one of the things I didn't like about the RAOTW remix. John Eden placed the vocals so on top of the mix on some songs... And with more than enough compression and automation to guarantee they'd stay there. A good example is on You Don't Own Me. On that part where Alan just sings quieter, you hear his voice being quieter, but you actually listen to more volume. There is no balance between that part and the part right before and after, where he is projecting more the voice. On the original mix there is balance between these parts. Overall though, the John Eden re-mix had been very welcome and John did a fabulous job. Changed many a fan's perception of that album.
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matt
Rocker Rollin'
Posts: 983
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Post by matt on Oct 16, 2020 17:57:48 GMT
This aspect of the bands latter day output annoys me more than anything, even the songwriting.
Their production is overwhelmingly poor. Piss poor in some aspects.
Im sure all the people involved are nice so this is just a critique of their results, but Mike Paxman's Quo sound is awful for the most part. He cant record a snare drum at all.
Its usually flat, empty, muddy and sounds like the band was recorded in a cardboard box.
The drums are uniformly awful on most records. Heavy traffic sounds so empty. This isn't about 'Heaviness" or anything its about quality of sound. There is no dynamism or high end, or brightness.
I can't see how its so difficult to record Quo - John Coghlan's Quo managed it on a fraction of th expense - Backbone has some nice aspects but the drums are practically missing on some tracks and the whole thing sounds so sterile. The guitars are OK and the voice levels but it sounds synthetic.
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Post by fretbuzzzzz on Oct 16, 2020 18:12:50 GMT
This aspect of the bands latter day output annoys me more than anything, even the songwriting. Their production is overwhelmingly poor. Piss poor in some aspects. Im sure all the people involved are nice so this is just a critique of their results, but Mike Paxman's Quo sound is awful for the most part. He cant record a snare drum at all. Its usually flat, empty, muddy and sounds like the band was recorded in a cardboard box. The drums are uniformly awful on most records. Heavy traffic sounds so empty. This isn't about 'Heaviness" or anything its about quality of sound. There is no dynamism or high end, or brightness. I can't see how its so difficult to record Quo - John Coghlan's Quo managed it on a fraction of th expense - Backbone has some nice aspects but the drums are practically missing on some tracks and the whole thing sounds so sterile. The guitars are OK and the voice levels but it sounds synthetic. matt...what was the last Quo album where you felt the production was spot on?
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Post by sqcollector on Oct 16, 2020 18:13:11 GMT
The interesting thing with QPQ had been that many fans believed the album had been recorded in the old tradition of the band in a live room and putting tracks down, but that wasn't the case. If the recording of an album is well done, you won't need to record everything at the same time, live, for it to sound live. And, like you, I think QPQ is a very lively album! Overall though, the John Eden re-mix had been very welcome and John did a fabulous job. Changed many a fan's perception of that album. Yes and I'm glad it was done! The original mixes were indeed a bit poor. I think John Eden did a great job! I do. That doesn't mean I agree with every decision he took eheh : p
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matt
Rocker Rollin'
Posts: 983
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Post by matt on Oct 16, 2020 18:26:40 GMT
This aspect of the bands latter day output annoys me more than anything, even the songwriting. Their production is overwhelmingly poor. Piss poor in some aspects. Im sure all the people involved are nice so this is just a critique of their results, but Mike Paxman's Quo sound is awful for the most part. He cant record a snare drum at all. Its usually flat, empty, muddy and sounds like the band was recorded in a cardboard box. The drums are uniformly awful on most records. Heavy traffic sounds so empty. This isn't about 'Heaviness" or anything its about quality of sound. There is no dynamism or high end, or brightness. I can't see how its so difficult to record Quo - John Coghlan's Quo managed it on a fraction of th expense - Backbone has some nice aspects but the drums are practically missing on some tracks and the whole thing sounds so sterile. The guitars are OK and the voice levels but it sounds synthetic. matt...what was the last Quo album where you felt the production was spot on? In all honesty - I would say Rock till you Drop. Or even Anniversary Waltz. For me producer isnt just capturing 5 performances, its about the vibe of the band. That to me feels like a band album, and all the instruments are dynamically present Although I think you could really tell In Search of the Fourth chord had a decent producer. As I say I don't automatically really equate Heavy with Good. I personally dont like the Quo album sound. I know that won't go down very well.... - Thirsty work is at least bright but doesnt sound like the band - Dont stop is just awful - Riffs, Heavy Traffic and TPAOY all suffer from Paxman-itis. They even re mixed All that counts is love for the single. And a good/bad example of what I mean is on Gotta Get up and Go, where the band come in after intial intro - it goes nowhere. - UTI - I haven't heard for a while, but was impressed at the time - Quid Pro quo is better than some as I remember I seemed to spend a lot of time messing with my Graphic Equaliser listening to these albums. A quick run of an mp3 through gragaeband and playing with the dynamic frequencies can yield far better results. Maybe its the mixing. Or Mastering I dont know. But things seldom come out of ARSIS studios sounding very good IMO
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Post by fretbuzzzzz on Oct 16, 2020 18:54:45 GMT
matt...what was the last Quo album where you felt the production was spot on? In all honesty - I would say Rock till you Drop. Or even Anniversary Waltz. For me producer isnt just capturing 5 performances, its about the vibe of the band. That to me feels like a band album, and all the instruments are dynamically present Although I think you could really tell In Search of the Fourth chord had a decent producer. As I say I don't automatically really equate Heavy with Good. I personally dont like the Quo album sound. I know that won't go down very well.... - Thirsty work is at least bright but doesnt sound like the band - Dont stop is just awful - Riffs, Heavy Traffic and TPAOY all suffer from Paxman-itis. They even re mixed All that counts is love for the single. And a good/bad example of what I mean is on Gotta Get up and Go, where the band come in after intial intro - it goes nowhere. - UTI - I haven't heard for a while, but was impressed at the time - Quid Pro quo is better than some as I remember I seemed to spend a lot of time messing with my Graphic Equaliser listening to these albums. A quick run of an mp3 through gragaeband and playing with the dynamic frequencies can yield far better results. Maybe its the mixing. Or Mastering I dont know. But things seldom come out of ARSIS studios sounding very good IMO Cheers for your reply matt. Funny you should mention Graphic equalisers as took me back to a time in the late 70s and early 80s of the trend of putting graphic EQ gadgets in our cars linked up to the cassette player. I can't deny that it made a difference! Saxon's 'Denim and Leather' went to another level in a mate's EQ' d up Capri Ghia! That's the curious thing with production... Rock ti You Drop had been recorded 'live' at Bray studios and also at Rossi's Arsis studios. Pip did a good job generally with 'ISOTFC' but some say it was 'too loud' as per the trend of those times but mastering will also come into play on that front. Pip is quite proud of 'Don't Stop'. In the main, the band set up as a band all together for 'Don't Stop' (as opposed to in the 'all together' with Aquostic!) in Arsis studios and the results were a fairly live recording, as such. Most albums have overdubs etc.
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Post by sqcollector on Oct 16, 2020 19:02:52 GMT
Maybe its the mixing. Or Mastering I dont know. But things seldom come out of ARSIS studios sounding very good IMO It can be the mastering. I don't think any of Paxman produced albums (UTI, FITLC, HT, Riffs, TPAOY) came out originally with a good mastering. And I think the producer has influence on that as well (at least for the album original release). For example, if you compare the Sea Cruise that came out as B-side on the CD singles (which I suppose, going by sound, has exactly the same production as the tracks from the original release of UTI, produced by Mike Paxman, but simply wasn't included on the album), with the Sea Cruise that came in the Benzin Im Blut CD, the latter just sounds much better. Way more natural. Not as muddy. Same with Driving To Glory, but that one didn't come form the UTI sessions, I believe. This to say that the mastering plays a big role. Even though Sea Cruise from Benzin Im Blut still sounds produced by Mike Paxman, it's not as bad as with the mastering supervised by, I assume, Mike Paxman. It lacks a lot of the muddiness that comes from the mastering process.
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Post by sqcollector on Oct 16, 2020 19:11:07 GMT
That's the curious thing with production... Rock ti You Drop had been recorded 'live' at Bray studios and also at Rossi's Arsis studios. Pip did a good job generally with 'ISOTFC' but some say it was 'too loud' as per the trend of those times but mastering will also come into play on that front. Pip is quite proud of 'Don't Stop'. In the main, the band set up as a band all together for 'Don't Stop' (as opposed to in the 'all together' with Aquostic!) in Arsis studios and the results were a fairly live recording, as such. Most albums have overdubs etc. ISOTFC sounds good, but the mastering is indeed loud. You can easily hear Alright distorting here and there if you pay attention. But that depends. There are louder song from other bands that don't distort has much. On the other hand, John Eden's remix also distorts here and there and it's quieter than ISOTFC. The mastering engineer just did a very poor job there (this is not John Eden's fault at all!). John Eden should release the masters. Going by his YouTube videos, they sound much better. I would rather buy masters instead of these modern masterings and remastered reissues. I think that in ISOTFC that amount of compression can sound "good". It gives it a lot of aggressiveness. Just makes it a bit tiring to listen to, after a while. The distortion just makes it horrible on those parts, but, hey, it's choices.
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Post by fretbuzzzzz on Oct 16, 2020 19:19:40 GMT
That's the curious thing with production... Rock ti You Drop had been recorded 'live' at Bray studios and also at Rossi's Arsis studios. Pip did a good job generally with 'ISOTFC' but some say it was 'too loud' as per the trend of those times but mastering will also come into play on that front. Pip is quite proud of 'Don't Stop'. In the main, the band set up as a band all together for 'Don't Stop' (as opposed to in the 'all together' with Aquostic!) in Arsis studios and the results were a fairly live recording, as such. Most albums have overdubs etc. ISOTFC sounds good, but the mastering is indeed loud. You can easily hear Alright distorting here and there if you pay attention. But that depends. There are louder song from other bands that don't distort has much. On the other hand, John Eden's remix also distorts here and there and it's quieter than ISOTFC. The mastering engineer just did a very poor job there (this is not John Eden's fault at all!). John Eden should release the masters. Going by his YouTube videos, they sound much better. I would rather buy masters instead of these modern masterings and remastered reissues. I think that in ISOTFC that amount of compression can sound "good". It gives it a lot of aggressiveness. Just makes it a bit tiring to listen to, after a while. The distortion just makes it horrible on those parts, but, hey, it's choices. You pay your money, you take your choice!
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Post by fretbuzzzzz on Oct 16, 2020 20:22:22 GMT
That's the curious thing with production... Rock ti You Drop had been recorded 'live' at Bray studios and also at Rossi's Arsis studios. Pip did a good job generally with 'ISOTFC' but some say it was 'too loud' as per the trend of those times but mastering will also come into play on that front. Pip is quite proud of 'Don't Stop'. In the main, the band set up as a band all together for 'Don't Stop' (as opposed to in the 'all together' with Aquostic!) in Arsis studios and the results were a fairly live recording, as such. Most albums have overdubs etc. ISOTFC sounds good, but the mastering is indeed loud. You can easily hear Alright distorting here and there if you pay attention. But that depends. There are louder song from other bands that don't distort has much. On the other hand, John Eden's remix also distorts here and there and it's quieter than ISOTFC. The mastering engineer just did a very poor job there (this is not John Eden's fault at all!). John Eden should release the masters. Going by his YouTube videos, they sound much better. I would rather buy masters instead of these modern masterings and remastered reissues. I think that in ISOTFC that amount of compression can sound "good". It gives it a lot of aggressiveness. Just makes it a bit tiring to listen to, after a while. The distortion just makes it horrible on those parts, but, hey, it's choices. As you seem to have quite an interest in the studio side of things sqcollector, with Arsis studios in mind, I thought you may like to know that 'Just Supposin' had been mixed at the Marquee with the exception of 'What You're Proposing'. It was an experiment of sorts to try mixing 'What You're Proposing' in Francis's Arsis loft studio. No automation and very limited outboard on an old Soundcraft compared to the SSL Consoles which were all the rage at the time. Against those odds, Rossi and John Eden nailed it and nearly a second No.1 in the charts if it hadn't been for Babs Streisand!
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